Tablet woven trim

[liadethornegge]

Taking the measuring tape to it today, I discover that the trim I bought from Sagadis at Double Wars was 2.70 metres long almost exactly. Times two makes for 5.4 metres of useable trim! Whee!

Maybe I must make that green wool into a bliaut now... hmm

Comments

[frualeydis.livejournal.com]

You are on MedCos (http://slumberland.org/moodle/course/view.php?id=5) aren't you? In the 12th century forum you can find the diagram for jauncourts wedding bliaut. I used the same for my green bliaut and it turned out wonderful, as can be seen in the icon ;)

Eva

[liadethornegge.livejournal.com]

True, true... I will have to give it a whirl. Not before the doublets I'm working no though, I think.

But both jauncourts and your bliauts are silk - mine will be wool.

[frualeydis.livejournal.com]

But I have two other bliauts in wool, quite heavy wool at that. None of them has a pleated on skirt though but widens with gores.

Eva

[liadethornegge.livejournal.com]

Exactly - the others do not have the pleated on skirt. What if it turns out horribly? I'm quite happy to let others break the ground of construction before me - I don't have the need to be first... *sighs* Well, we'll see what comes of it all in the end.

[frualeydis.livejournal.com]

I wish I had pictures of my red wool bliaut. Here (http://www.voldstedlund.se/Kent/images/Kroning_Bollerup_00/KronBoll00.html) is a picture of an older red wool bliaut that has now been "retired". It's not me in the pictures, but it's my dress and it's made with a long, ruched torso and widens with gores. You can also see Elaine's green bliaut which is made in the same way. This is of course _very_ thin wool. If you have heavier wool you have to be careful and not double the length of the torso, but maybe just add half it's length again.

Eva

I don't buy the pleated on skirt theory

[bend-gules.livejournal.com]

...at all.

I'm a committed 12th c. person, who flirts with other costuming eras. The only construction method that makes sense to me is a carefully fitted tunic made from rectangles and gores, possibly side-laced, but of a single body piece.

Other than the artwork of the 12th c. (best known in the Chartres statues, which I blame for starting this whole trend) there is no evidence for waist seams before the late 15th c.

It doesn't make sense to me that tailors would pick up a style, use it for 40-50 years, then drop it, not to use it again for centuries.

Far, far more likely is that *artists* and *sculptors* took up a particular artistic convention, that in its highest form is exaggerated (like on big statues viewed from a distance), and then gradually move onto another stylistic convention.

Put another way: just because Picasso depicts women with both eyes on the same side of their heads...does that mean that his girlfriends were physical mutants who actually looked like that? Don't think so.

Interpreting art is a tricky business for amateurs. AFAIK, all the arguments for waist seams and pleating is based on artwork. That goes in the face of the commonsense of a continuum of costuming modification that carries on before and after the 12th c.

... go on, ask me my real opinion! :-)

Re: I don't buy the pleated on skirt theory

[liadethornegge.livejournal.com]

Hehe, well, then, what is you real opinion?

Actually, I think you make a good point, and I am actually quite hesitant about making the pleated skirt look with my wool. Using silk there is really no bulk produced at all by pleating, but with wool, there's going to be plenty. I can't envisage this line at the waist would be very attractive. But I do think jauncort's wedding bliaut with the pleated on skirt looks right, as does frualeydis's green silk bliaut.

But as Eva says, she has not tried this with wool, so I'm still not convinced for wool and I really can't afford to experiment in wool and destroy a load of fabric which is what potentially might happen.

I've done a few dresses with rectangles and gores, all my underdresses are constructed this way, basically, but my bliaut experiment turned out an utter failure. It might have been the fabric, but I don't know for sure.

In any case, I have at least three projects in the pipeline before I start considering what to actually do with my green wool, so there is plenty of time to ponder. I do wish EzaBella had been at Double Wars, I would have picked her brain...

Re: I don't buy the pleated on skirt theory

[jauncourt.livejournal.com]

I do have to say I'm really amused by the shift from attributing a gored-skirt style to me to attributing a pleated-on skirt style to me :) I've only ever made one of them! However, these are my opinions, based on what I've researched and experienced while making my own gowns.

The only cloth I'd make a pleated-on skirt type gown out of is silk, specifically imported pattern-woven silk, probably from India or Persia, and very likely with woven in borders. Every example of a gown with an apparent waist join (smooth or horizontally-wrinkled torso, then trimming of some kind, and finally fine pleats or gathering) seems to be made of silk, just from how it's depicted. I think that the pleated on skirts might have actually been invented *just to use such bordered silks*. That's my wild theory. Makes as much sense as any other...

Now, if I wanted something *totally* off the top of my head theoretical, I *might* make one out of a pattern-woven cotton sari. Cotton was being woven for garments in the East at the time. It might have been imported, and used as a luxury item. Could have happened, but it's Far From Likely.

Now, for a fine wool, I'd make it with a gored skirt. Wool just likes being made into gored skirts. Hangs nicely. Etc. I'd use a lightweight wool, though. Heavy wool will say "winter overdress" or "I'm a coat" every time.

Re: I don't buy the pleated on skirt theory

[liadethornegge.livejournal.com]

I don't follow what you mean by your first line there, I only mentioned you in relation to the pleated on skirt, and of it being made of silk (the lovely wedding dress you made out of the sari).

I wouldn't want to make a dress out of cotton in any case - it doesn't perform as nicely as does linen or wool :)

Re: I don't buy the pleated on skirt theory

[jauncourt.livejournal.com]

As far as the first line goes, I meant that more people seem to be using me as a source for the pleated-on skirt theory than for a gored skirt theory since I got married and posted info about that one dress I made. It's really quite odd.. :)

Anyway, I think you are correct in wanting to make your green wool into a gored bliaut.

Re: I don't buy the pleated on skirt theory

[liadethornegge.livejournal.com]

Aah, well, if you keep being the first one to try try out new things, you'll keep hearing your name tossed around. Besides, the wedding bliaut is beautiful, and my next 12th Century garment is a long ways off yet.

The pleated on skirt theory

[frualeydis.livejournal.com]

I wasn't convinced about the pleated on theory either, but Janet Snyder (who BTW isn't an amateur but a scholar in this field) makes a good case for it in her article in Encountering medieval textiles and dress: objects, texts, images, edited by Koslin and Snyder (New York 2002).

And waist seams aren't an invention of the 15th century, but can be found in medieval art from the 1340s at least (Stella Mary Newton writes about them in Fashion in the age of the Black Prince). I would say that it is not more natural to have an evolutionary view of fashion, with constant progression than a cyclical, tight garments give way to loose garments and then to tight garments again. Since the fashion of the 13th century was very loose and flowing there was no _need_ for waist seams, even if they had invented that technique, which of course isn't proven yet.

Eva